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Post by buckmana on Feb 24, 2014 0:43:20 GMT -4
I was watching Pyjama Party Prankapooloza and was a little disturbed by the way Skyway patrol describe Jenny. They refer to her as a faulty machine that can be dismantled for not obeying instructions by her organic creator.
In truth, Jenny is a fully sentient lifeform, with emotions and thoughts of her own. So to dismantle her would be murder, as she qualifies as a living being.
And then we have the not so little problem of self-preservation instinct. Are Skyway Patrol so deluded as to believe Jenny will allow them to take her apart just because they order her to submit. It has been established time and again that Jenny has complete freewill, anything she does is by choice, not because you tell her she must do it. And if she chooses not to do what you ask, there's nothing you can do about that either.
Keep in mind Jenny was designed to stop overwhelming alien invasion forces all by herself. And now factor in her impressive arsenal of inbuilt weapons, her knowledge of battle tactics, unarmed combat, high durability and extreme physical strength.
Now imagine you've just threatened to kill her. How do you think you'll feel when she turns all that against you?
She'd take Skyway Patrol apart piece by piece until all their ships were scrap metal. It would be a very one sided fight!
Now picturing this scene:
Skyway Patrol Pilot: Rogue Robot sighted sir, permission to engage? Skyway Patrol Captain: Have the Ensign bring up the engagement forms and the Rush stamp from the document storage room BOOM! Skyway Patrol Captain: What was that noise? And why is the deck suddenly leaning to the left? Skyway Patrol Ensign: The document storage room is just gone Sir! And the Portside engines along with it! The crew look out the window to see Jenny adjusting her aim with the weapon that just removed the side of the ship. Skyway Patrol Captain: Oh <bleep!>
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Post by swoop on Feb 26, 2014 0:11:36 GMT -4
It is important thing to not that it one officer that is doing it. I think he would have been the next villain. His second appearance was in Spoonful of Mayhem.
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Post by Agai Lazen on Feb 26, 2014 2:39:24 GMT -4
Why would they believe Jenny is just a machine? Well there's the possibility that the writers didn't go as far as I'm about to and just make them the one-dimensional jerks typical to this show, but there's also the possibility that the lack of sentience is a cover to protect both Jenny and Nora. Why? Simple: giving sentience to a weapon of mass destruction is probably one of the most irresponsible things you could possibly do as a scientist, especially a weapon as powerful as Jenny.
If Skyway was anywhere decent as a defense organization, Jenny and Nora would be public enemy #1 had they not been fooled by the ruse of Jenny just being a mindless mechanism. With any decency, they'd either terminate her consciousness entirely, or remove it from her body, either case ending with Skyway's own scantily-dressed swiss-army-bot that WON'T defy orders or offer suggestions that challenge authority.
I'm honestly surprised the rest of the XJ series hadn't turned on Nora the way she treats them, especially how flawed their personalities are. Yes, they're dangerous war machines...mostly, but if Jenny is any indication then it's safe to assume that the intellect from the other XJ robots is removable.
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Post by buckmana on Feb 26, 2014 3:17:23 GMT -4
Yes, I remember that guy. I think he was more motivated by jealousy because Jenny was beating him to the punch when the alien attack of the day happens. And in that episode, he refers again to deactivating Jenny.
General Hardscape on the other hand, he seems to be more inclined to accept Jenny as a sentient individual, as he talks to her like a person, not a machine.
And I think giving sentience was intentional by Nora, because her greatest creation was flawed by the simple fact he wasn't sentient. He followed orders to "destroy all weapons" and because he deemed "everything potentially dangerous to be a weapon", he started attacking Skyway Patrol, planetary defense forces and civilians because of that. Jenny has shown time and again any orders she follows are by choice, she's equally capable of refusing to do something as she is of accepting the task.
And the XJ-9 weapons system requires a mind that can think and plan, due to the complexity of using it. Basically, a battle will go like this, if one weapon doesn't work, Jenny will choose one that is suited to the requirements of the situation. A non-sentient computer controlling the same system would just keep trying them all in sequence until it reaches the one that does work. And by the time it gets to that one, the battle will be lost.
We've even seen that happen on screen when Vexus acquires the secrets of the XJ-9 weapons and has a defense for each of them. What does Jenny do? Modify the weapons so they function in a manner that Vexus doesn't expect! For example, she richochets the stun grenades off a nearby surface, altering the firing rate.
I'm assuming Jenny has official authorization to be a superhero somewhere, even if they've never said exactly where. Given that they keep saying things like global emergency response unit implies that somewhere, sometime, someone rubber stamped Jenny's approval to be the defender of planet Earth.
And yes, Jenny's sisters have flawed personalities, but they still have emotional attachments to their mother and sister. An analogy, do you commit matricide just because you're angry at your mother punishing you?
And I remember in the final episode, Jenny's sentient brain actually allows her to partially resist Dr Locus' technology controlling remote. Her body is being controlled by it, but apparently her head still is controlled by her brain, since she warns Nora to avoid the attacks in advance. Implying that Dr Locus' remote can't override her freewill.
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Post by Agai Lazen on Feb 26, 2014 11:00:34 GMT -4
While yes, Armagedroid had a flawed AI, it wasn't because he didn't have sentience, it was because he wasn't programmed with Asimov's Laws, which lead him to disobey his creators' orders and go on a rampage in an attempt to rid the world of weapons, as per his programming. While I initially thought Jenny WAS programmed with Asimov's Laws, that clearly isn't the case when you see her chase Sheldon with laser cannons opening fire on his scrawny ass. While I do think he's given his just desserts, that shouldn't be Jenny's choice to decide.
Yes, she's a world-class defense robot, but in the very first episode it's shown that she responds only to events or creatures that are identified by authorities as a threat, which conceptually is a massive improvement over Armagedroid. This means that she won't decide who lives and dies based on arbitrary morals...if she wasn't sentient. As it is, and while she has the right morals to protect mankind, she will eventually break these morals if you test her enough, shown by her reaction to Sheldon's manipulative tendencies.
Would XJ9's weapons really require an advanced, human-like intellect to operate? I honestly don't think so. Besides the transformation, all you need to operate most of them is the capacity to point and shoot, something that even modern-day robots can do with little effort and high accuracy. While I do think a world-class defense unit would need the capacity to think and plan, it's not because of Jenny's over-the-top arsenal.
But Jenny's sisters aren't being punished or shut down because they've misbehaved, they're being shelved because they're OBSOLETE, because the situation requires something that they cannot provide. Would you lock your own children in a cellar for all eternity just because they don't have a job and therefore can't pay bills?
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Post by buckmana on Feb 26, 2014 20:19:52 GMT -4
The ease at which Jenny convinces Armagedroid to commit suicide is strong evidence that he doesn't have sentience, because no sentient intelligence will kill itself because "they are told to". Also, Jenny says that Armagedroid's intelligence data centers are vastly inferior to the AI technology she is familiar with, which supports that theory.
And I've never really supported the idea of restraining protocols on a sentient AI, it's the metaphorical equivalent of chaining someone up, then forcing them to work for you. In that situation, when the protocols are removed, the creation inevitably turns on the creator because of the way they were mistreated. It's better to give them free will, so they can learn restraint as a personal choice rather then force it on them manditorily.
And it has been shown that Jenny will on occassion, ignore global threats because she wants to. The first episode she completely ignores the C class asteroid because she knows it's harmless and she'd rather be hanging out with Brad. And when Misty takes over Tremorton's defense temporaily, Jenny ignores pretty much every crisis that happens because Misty is solving the problem. If she was responding to an external command designating something as a threat, there's no way she could ignore it.
And yes, Jenny does have a violent streak, but she does limit herself when dealing with organics. Remember the combat inhibitor I referred to? It reduces the amount of power available so her energy weapons aren't lethal. I'm assuming she enabled it before shooting at Sheldon, because the blast that hits him is merely painful. Of course, the combat inhibitor is solely controlled by Jenny, so it's difficult for an outside agent to activate it. Although Tiff did manage to disable it with a hairpin when she learned where it was (it's inside Jenny's left hand). Apparently it looks like that particular weakness was removed later, because a cover is installed over the port that allows external access to the control button. Or it could have been converted to a software function so external tampering was impossible.
Yes, any computer can do targeting solutions, but keep in mind they must follow logic rules. The amount of computing power necessary to cover every concievable combat scenario with each individual weapon in the arsenal would overwhelm even the most advanced computer. And even so, what happens if an unexpected problem is encountered? The computer would refuse to take action because it has no solution for the situation. Hence why Jenny has the ability to adapt and improvise, instinct works better then logic when faced with the unexpected.
As regards Jenny's sisters, it appears in later episodes, Nora activates them permanently, because they make minor cameos here and there without being activated. Which could indicate that Nora changed her mind about keeping them inactive.
And to go back on topic, it turns out that Skyway Patrol is well aware of Jenny's superheroine status, because when General Hardscape shows Jenny her activity file, she asks "if it includes all the time she saved the earth" and he answers "yes it does". Which makes what that lieutenant did a severe offence, considering he was acting against Skyway's Patrol's classification of Jenny as a world saver. No wonder he got fired.....
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Post by swoop on Mar 1, 2014 14:14:07 GMT -4
There is also a chance of them following commands in their own way. Watch World of Quest series or any jerk genie for example. I need to check something because this should be noted. Was Jenny a citizen during after the Cluster movie? In Spoonful of Mayhem it has been pointed that Jenny cannot go to jail. Any faults she does will be under Dr. Noreen Wakeman. This part is important, because if Dr Wakeman is not around than she would be under Sheldon responsibility because of him being an apprentice or Skyway Patrol’s.
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Post by buckmana on Mar 2, 2014 1:40:07 GMT -4
Please clarify the term "citizen". Then I'll have a better idea of what you are asking.
And I'm not sure how Sheldon factors into this, he was never a part of Skyway Patrol. It's Brad who joined Skyway Patrol. And he resigned shortly after he realized how much they were tied down with paperwork.
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Post by swoop on Mar 2, 2014 10:38:12 GMT -4
I am saying that Jenny would be confiscated by Skyway Patrol along with all of Dr. Wakemen inventions. Sheldon being Wakeman’s apprentice hopefully would belong to him as he knows how to take care of them. This would mean Jenny would be his property. That will be awkward. Jennny being a citizen means she will have rights. She is a honorary hero but so was Armagedroid.
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Post by buckmana on Mar 3, 2014 7:09:03 GMT -4
I don't think an arbitary legal classification has any bearing on what Jenny will or will not do.
Because she has free will, it means she won't do anything if it goes against common sense or survival instinct. So, regardless of legal classification, Jenny is very aware as a sentient being, she has certain rights and will act to defend them. In one particular case, she removes the wall from Wakeman's prison cell, so I don't think she particularly cares about legality. Nora herself will quite aggressively confront Skyway Patrol too, as she activates a defense mechanism in her house and uses on the Skyway Patrol lieutenant when he threatens Jenny.
But if you are asking when Jenny was publicly recognized as a citizen, that's a complicated question to answer. A few times during the show, they say Jenny (once she's publicly revealed) is legally obligated to attend school like any other teenager. If she was thought of as "just a machine", then the population of Tremorton wouldn't be so insistent on the fact that she follow the same rules as everyone else.
I suppose the only time she was publicly recognized was after saving the world in Escape From Cluster Prime. So I assume from that moment on, that's when she was recognized as a sentient individual.
There is something I was wondering about though, which has never been addressed. The amount of financial resources to build the XJ series and the command center in the Wakeman house must be quite substantial. And although Nora would receive royalties from her various patents, it is stated that she's not very wealthy. So someone else must have paid the bills to construct Jenny, on the condition that they get her services in the defense of earth.
I'm assuming Skyway Patrol is a global organisation and their Global Operations Centre are the ones who funded the XJ series. And Armaggedroid before them as well. Which is likely, since Nora is a retired Skyway Patrol scientist. If that scenario is accurate, it would mean that Skyway Global Command has the authority to override any action taken against Jenny, as they commissioned her and know much she is needed. Therefore, some little local division like Tremorton Skyway Patrol is massively overstepping their authority.
But then again, that lieutenant wasn't viewing the situation rationally, he was motivated by rage and jealously. And as we saw, he eventually paid the price for it.
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Post by swoop on Mar 4, 2014 22:47:14 GMT -4
She is not very wealthy. She has a tiger which I am guessing is for science. If you Count the mishaps the property damage do take their toll. she has a machine that can tell the future and a danger alarm. I think I have idea for other episodes.
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